Magic Systems

If you're talking about D&D 3/3.5e, yes, spells are limited to a certain number each day. Of course, the more experience you get at casting spells, the more you can cast, which is exactly why the spells/day is determined by the caster level.

As far as the material components of spells go, D&D handles it by letting you buy a Spell component pouch and letting you save space (logically, this doesn't work, but if you had to carry everything that you needed for every spell that you might need at some point in the adventure, you'd be pretty weighed down). Without the bag, you can't cast spells that require material components, but the vocal/somatic parts can still be achieved. One of the few times that I DMed, I tried out a system where the component pouch didn't have everything, so the magic-user (it was a 1e game) had to get his own components, but it would have taken an entire session for him to get everything if I hadn't just allowed him to have everything in his pouch again. The problem with playing this way in D&D is that a lot of the components are rare and can be expensive (e.g. bat guano, crushed rubies, etc.). I think that the reason that we actually ended it was about 15 minutes straight of us screaming "What's bitumen!?!?" at the top of our lungs and crying with laughter.

Oh, and another point, not sure if you meant to leave it out or not, though. Regarding Somatic (motion) components of spells, some people don't think that it's very fair that you have to be deducted for wearing armor when casting a somatic spell because magic-users/wizards/sorcerers have always been weak defensively (at early levels, since they can sometimes dismiss all/most ranged attacks and kill off enemies before they're even threatened at higher levels) and want some kind of leniency. But the rules make sense and make up for the whole component bag bonus, so it's good.

That only discusses the D&D magic system, but hopefully it's a start.

Well actually I'm trying to work out a fair system taht does not have some kind of arbitrary number.

For instance Why does the average first level mage only have 1 spell to cast.? I always assumed the traditional answer was that was all he could hold in his brain. But even if you accept this idea. It seems odd to simply forget everything once memorized so exactly. Some people today can still recite the Gettysburg Address after learning it in Middle School.

At best I could accept that the simple excuse is magic. Magic erases the memory after the spell is cast, etc etc blah blah.

But consider this idea. If a spells only requirements (outside of somatic, verbal) is a material component, and a mage can cast a spell as many times as he has the material component, why shouldn't he? Say he goes ahead and carries 15 pieces of bitumen in a separate pouch just for the ocassion of using it and at his leisure replenishes his supply back up to whatever amount he needs?

Would feats like 'Cast without spell component: material' suddenly make them a God? perhaps. Then just do away with that feat, saying it is a necessary part of the magical system of the world in which sacrifces must be made in order to access magic.

Verbal and Somatic are not items that typically run out, (Although I am generally ignoring Somatic entirely). Physical components however and having the access to hold them in one's hand or spread them in an appropriate manner limit the power of the wizard/sorc in some way.

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To be fair, I am working on a system of my own (why I'm in non-d20) and I'm looking for rational to either limit the magic system in another way than just physical components or that it is an acceptable manner to hinder magi in their quest for power.

After all, I believe the original intention of the &D magic system was to have the mage find the components for their spells and that in turn becomes part of the adventures of the group or that individual. It simply became scrapped becasue of all the other party members who don't give a lick about searching out bat guano and bitumen and just want to fight.

While I can still see this as a problem, I wonder it there is another way around the ideas of determining how many spells a mage can cast in a day without saying 'unlimited' or basing it off some spell point value from a spell point pool.

JOE--
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Uhhh, you don't 'forget' the spell, you just don't have the power to cast it. A first level caster doesn't have a large reserve of magical power, and the list determines exactly how much he has, it rations it for you, but you can still use a low level spell in a high level spot, so it makes sense, the slots are a measure of your available magical reserve. As to you saying it's arbitrary, re-read the start of the PHB, the part on stats, the higher the score of the casting stat, the more spells you can cast, so it isn't really arbitrary at all.

Just being the devils advocate here, i know the system isn't perfect, but it works.

I think that one problem with sending the Wizard out to find his components is that, generally, wizards don't fight alone. He's probably going to have a fighter with him who will be whining throughout the process about how little fun is in finding bitumen. Maybe at first the players won't mind; for example, Light, a level 0 spell, requires a firefly or phosphourescent moss. Good luck getting a level 1 party to go through a cave trying to find phosphourescent moss when they can be easily killed and will probably waste more ability to shed light (in torches, fuel, and spells) just to find the moss than they will get in the actual spell (even if there is a lot of moss, you only cast Light so many times in an adventure). Now, lightningbugs, sure, fun stuff, have a party, cook some marshmellows, and prance around catching fireflies. But I don't really remember the last time that I joined a campaign to catch fireflies.

I think that if you use a system like this, the best way to keep the game together is to have seperate sessions for material component hunting. Some players want to get right into the battle, slice throats, save the maiden, get the gold, and go into the next adventure, but they're still a part of the campaign and one person acting up because they don't like the how the game is running can slow it down for everyone.

It is still arbitrary because it just as easy to say that all players can cast 5 more spells than they normally would. That odd level spells only take half the amount of energy, etc.

I'll go back and read the magic section of the various editions to get some exact stats but I don't remember it specifically saying that a player can memorize 2 1st level spells in place of a single second, which would be an appropriate power replacement. But I really can't remember, so I'll read.

Also I don't remember a recovery rate on that energy and why should a character have to study a spell each time after casting it. I'm also drawing on a 2e bias.
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If casting components of the physical nature are undesireable, are spell points the desireable measure of casting ability over #'s of spells per level?

Estentially they would be the same thing is a mage has a given power level and spells have a given casting cost.

JOE--

Omg Mikkl, you mean you DON'T hunt fireflies?

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Anyway,

[quote]For instance Why does the average first level mage only have 1 spell to cast.? [/quote]

The logical reason relates to a game of hacky sack. I, on my very first run, could get a total of 1 kick before the sack hits the ground. The more I practice, the more kicks I could get in before it could touch the ground. Eventually, I was able to perform higher level kicks. Now I'm a level 3 Hacky Sacker. That's right, f@3r my 6 kicks per round!

In 3E, a wizard or sorcerer or whatever's your poison... they cast spells from their core stat, not from their spellbook. A wizard casting a spell will feel drained until they rest for a full 8 hours (hence the 8 hour rule). The spellbook's only there to prepare the spell, lending the idea that when you cast a spell, you are completing a ritual, not starting one. In reality, the length of casting a spell ranks up between 10 minutes and an hour.

Think of spellcasting like bodybuilding for the mind more than just wiggling your toes and blowing your nose.

Casting a magic missile is like lifting a bag of bricks. You aren't gonna do it that often the first few times. Casting Fireball is like lifting a bag of lead weights... you aren't gonna do it until you can master those bricks. Casting Wall of Fire is like lifting a car... yeah, you get my point. Just because a spell only has material components doesn't mean a neophyte can lift that bag of bricks as many times as he wants.

[quote] To be fair, I am working on a system of my own (why I'm in non-d20) and [b]I'm looking for rational to either limit the magic system in another way than just physical components or that it is an acceptable manner to hinder magi in their quest for power. [/b]

After all, I believe the original intention of the &D magic system was to have the mage find the components for their spells and that in turn becomes part of the adventures of the group or that individual. [b]It simply became scrapped becasue of all the other party members who don't give a lick about searching out bat guano and bitumen and just want to fight.[/b] [/quote]

If you have problems hindering mages and quests for power, it's probably not the spell system. And even if it was, how would this limit the problem? It would only force mages to take Eschew Materials as their first feat...

The original intention of D20 with respect to materials and mages was that you could limit a spell by limiting the material. "Omg bats don't exist in my world, no fireball for you." or, "no gum arabic allowed in this tavern, no invisible for you."

Yes, you see, it'd be understandable to restrict a mage based on materials, yes, but honestly, I'd rather not play a mage if 3/4ths of it were spent risking death to find some random component.

EDIT: [quote] If casting components of the physical nature are undesireable, are spell points the desireable measure of casting ability over #'s of spells per level? [/quote]

The only benefit of a spell point system is the ability to cast spells multiple times. Ergo, the sorcerer. Unless you mean some sort weird spell point system which I haven't heard of. And casting components aren't undesirable, random boring hunts for them are though.

[quote] you are completing a ritual, not starting one [/quote]

Ah, didn't think of it like that. Lends much more credence to the "study spells you want to cast the next day" idea.

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[quote] If you have problems hindering mages and quests for power, it's probably not the spell system. And even if it was, how would this limit the problem? It would only force mages to take Eschew Materials as their first feat... [/quote]

I don't have a problem (seeks designers anonymous).
Actually, in a component based system, Eschew Materials, wouldn't be a part of the game, because it would undermine the point and completely destroy game balance.

Also hindering casters is part of the point, IMHO, of any spell casting system. Otherwise you have a bunch of casters walking around blowing fighter away safely from a distance while having tea and scones. AD&D dealt with it by saying, "You have this many spells per day per level. Memorize and cast. When cast you forget and must start over."

Other systems take the idea of any spell can be cast at any time but it drains you physically and takes from a spell point pool which is a generally reflection of your tiredness.

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Before I commit to a specific system however, I want to examine all my options and the pros and cons of each. The idea that studying spells is part of starting a ritual is very interesting, though. And while I feel studying spells is the most restrictive environment (putting the most limitation on the spellcaster) it could be opened up a bit by maybe having something like ritual trees in which the beginnings of rituals could be studied and from those beginnings the ends could be completed in a variety of manners, emulating an assortment of spells.

ex. Ritual A branches into Light, Magic Missle, or Detect Magic.
Ritual B -> Spider Climb, Jump, Levitate
etc.
OR ritual into magic school level difficulty.
Hmm... must think about this.

JOE--

I rather like the system used in call of cthulhu d20. In that system anyone can learn magic, and anyone can cast magic whenever the hell they want to BUT it deals ability damage (sometimes permanent) and sanity damage (call of cthulhu has a sanity stat -- dont worry about it unless you really wanna use it in your games).

Any mage would think twice about casting a spell if it dealt him 6 temporary con damage (mage gets no save, he's the one allowing it by casting the spell) every time he cast it. Those that cast with wild abandon, die early.. or go insane and die early in that system. Some of the spells also deal permanent damage (usually only 1 or 2 points)... one is less likely to cast a spell if it cripples them.

I think that a system based off of spell componants would work if made properly. The spells would have to be toned up a bit, and the materials would have to be able to be found easily based on level.
Example- Ray of Frost for no reason at all requires the use of a Goblins Finger. A party is likely to run into goblins at level 1, and even if they arent, it is likely that they could just hunt them..

However, casting a spell like fireball would require (also for no reason) powdered minotaurs horn.

At first level they can learn fireball, but it will be unlikely that they could cast it... The levels they gain would most likely only allow for more spells known and more ability to gain rarer spell componants.

Note.. this would work best in a setting where wizards are some what like legendary creatures.. they are rare and mortals fear their imense power. Sort of like in the tale of King Arthur, where Merlin was one of the few wizards known.

You mean like...hmm interesting, you mean each PC could be something like a "Golem" or "Elf" (customized into classes and such) and wander the world, perhaps to be summoned and bound into some planeswalkers service? Or to fight against their ravaging hordes, caught in the middle of a war between the planeswalker and the dominant powers of the plane/another planeswalker? It sounds intriguing...the planeswalker takes the place of the BBEG, and you could throw any creature you wanted out there for no reason, cause planeswalkers summon the weirdest shit. Anyways, thats my input, feel free to expand and criticize.

Edit: Ahahahah I thought it was Magic systems, like making MtG work as a RPG, wow...yeah so if you are confused thats why.