So that's how you use your mouth.

I don't know what Fukimi-Bara are (I've looked up their stats, but that doesn't tell much)... so I'm going to have just reiterate the rules.

You roll separately for multiple crossbow shots, I don't see why you wouldn't roll separately for mouth darts.

Any ranged attack that can target a vital area while the target can't defend himself effectively will get a sneak attack bonus (Provided it's in Sneak Attack range) All darts would get the sneak attack bonus, I believe.

Hmmmm, well with crossbow attacks there's a reload in there somewhere, but he might mean that you sort of spit these things all at once. In that case, I'd rule that they all share an attack roll.

Only if you have all the darts in the tube at the same time though. If you pop up and shoot while he's not looking, you dont shoot all at once because according to the laws of physics all the darts have the same trajectory and would all land on top of each other.

Since when did physics work properly in DnD?

Personally, I'd have them separate attack rolls -- as they each would be a separate attack. You fire a dart, reload, then fire again. As for having them in there altogether, I still say separate attacks, along the lines of multiple shurikens for deviancy etc.

Physics should work! I major in Physics! No fair!

Physics doesn't work in D&D? But, physics, work, D&D, not work, error, physics, constants, gravity, electrostatics, magic, error, telekinesis, divine will, error, error, err--*

**I'm sorry, but this unit has overloaded and must shut down due to a metaphysical dichotomy. DivaDroid Interplanar would like to apologize for any inconvenience. A credit note will be forwarded to your account promptly.**

I would tend to see this dart thing work more like a bow, as (if pictured properly in my mind) there doesn't seem to be a wench system and whatnot involved. Personally, I would rule as if it were a bow, which do need to be reloaded (the player simply reloads faster and faster as he gets higher and higher level, putting out about 1.5 shots per second at level 20). Each attack would get it's own roll at its respective attack bonus.

actually if all three were in the tube at once they would NOT all land in the same place, as the force differs for each dart due to the distance from the source of the force to the dart. also, for each dart to have the same flight path from the same starting point, they would all have to be aerodynamically the same.

a field test of this is to place three bb's in a bb gun and aim at a paper target. from anywhere as close as 6-8 feet all three should manage to penetrate the paper. upon achieving the penetration by all three bb's, you will see that they spread.

[quote="Claymored"]actually if all three were in the tube at once they would NOT all land in the same place, as the force differs for each dart due to the distance from the source of the force to the dart. also, for each dart to have the same flight path from the same starting point, they would all have to be aerodynamically the same.

a field test of this is to place three bb's in a bb gun and aim at a paper target. from anywhere as close as 6-8 feet all three should manage to penetrate the paper. upon achieving the penetration by all three bb's, you will see that they spread.[/quote]

What? You mean like a shotgun with pellet rounds? [i]How dare they[/i]? ;)

Sorry, felt like being a bit over sarcastic. Anyway, yes, the three darts would spread. You can do that with something as 'sophisticated' as a BB-gun, or if you are like me (and have dozens of weapons laying around unsupervised and mostly unused) a blowgun with three darts in it.

Thus, they be a volley attack, mah good sah, as per Manyshot. And only the first dart may crit, or get sneak attack damage. If you are firing them one at a time, well, ignore this. They can crit and sneak, since they are seperate attacks.

you guys realize this thread was made [i][b]over[/b][/i] a year and a half ago, right?

by someone with 1 post that's never returned..

I am in agreement with Multi. Mostly because... he is right. The attacks would be resolved like a shuriken attack, with separate attack rolls and only one chance to crit/sneak attack.

The important thing to note, however, is that unless the rogue has strong neck muscles, his mouth would get rather tired after a while. And we all know how important it is for quick witted rogues to be able to mouth off properly.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that a blow gun is not a good idea for a rogue.

[quote="ArchDevil"]you guys realize this thread was made [i][b]over[/b][/i] a year and a half ago, right?

by someone with 1 post that's never returned..[/quote]

Actually, I just followed Clay.

*sigh* last time I do that :P

[quote="Muddy"]The attacks would be resolved like a shuriken attack, with separate attack rolls and only one chance to crit/sneak attack. [/quote]

And, actually, shuriken are no longer volley that I can tell, each is a seperate attack. You can't throw three a round anymore without three attacks. And it used to be (I believe) just one attack roll for three shuriken didn't it?

[quote="Pheenyx"]Since when did physics work properly in DnD?[/quote]Since 3.5e's Telekinesis lets you throw 750 sling bullets at an enemy at level 15 and do normal damage with your base attack bonus + int modifier as your attack bonus as a wizard (cha modifier as a sorcerer).

750-3000 damage/round.

[quote="multirp"]

Actually, I just followed Clay.

[/quote]

let this be a lesson to you. next time you (or someone else) will probably end up on fire.

[quote="ArchDevil"][quote="multirp"]

Actually, I just followed Clay.

[/quote]

let this be a lesson to you. next time you (or someone else) will probably end up on fire.[/quote]

Meh.

[quote="Mikkl"][quote="Pheenyx"]Since when did physics work properly in DnD?[/quote]Since 3.5e's Telekinesis lets you throw 750 sling bullets at an enemy at level 15 and do normal damage with your base attack bonus + int modifier as your attack bonus as a wizard (cha modifier as a sorcerer).

750-3000 damage/round.[/quote]

I'm gonna pick up the sword and fight you on this one, only cuz you're entirely wrong.

The part of the [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm]spell[/url] you're referring to, courtesy of [url=http://www.d20srd.org]d20srd.org[/url] (emphasis mine).

[quote][i]Violent Thrust[/i]
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl [b]one object[/b] or creature [b]per caster level (maximum 15)[/b] that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). [u]Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner).[/u] Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).[/quote]

Now, the bold highlight clearly shows why you're entirely wrong. With your sling bullets, at [i]very[/i] best, we're dealing 15d4 damage, and that's with 15 successful attack rolls. Not very powerful for a 5th level spell as a 15th level caster, mmm?

I underlined the second item, as I think it's worth mention as well. As a weapon, sling bullets don't have a damage rating. Only when fired from a sling do they do damage. Also, the underlined portion notes how arrows and bolts deal less damage (specifically, that of a dagger of their size). This would lend one to believe that [i]Telekinesis[/i] propels the arrows/bolts slower than their respective projectile weapons, right?

Well, according to [url=http://www.slinging.org]slinging.org[/url], a sling can fire up to 350mph; pretty damn fast for a shaped piece of metal. I had a really hard time getting an exact figure, but from what I was able to find, a modern hunting bow fires about 300-320 feet per second (or, roughly, 200-225mph). Since we can probably assume from the description, [i]Telekinesis[/i] moves the objects slower than a bow (a modern hunting bow's 225mph), it surely moves objects slower than a sling (350mph).

Therefore, we must then assume that the sling bullets wouldn't deal 1d4 damage when hurled with Telekinesis, either. I'd have to assume we'd be lucky to pull 1d2 damage from a single sling bullet.

Therefore, the best a caster could hope to really do with that spell (when it comes to hurling weapons) is to hurl 15 greatswords (2d6, 8lbs) or greataxes (1d12, 12lbs), for a total of 30d6/15d12, respectively. Even still, this requires 15 successful attack rolls. I can think of better ways to waste my spells (and encumberance) than carrying around 120lbs of greatswords and then rolling 15d20, hoping I one-shot some poor sucker to death. No, I'd rather [i]Cone of Cold[/i] them for 15d6 and be done with it.

Sorry, but I had to burst your bubble. Thanks for playing, though. :)

Note: Yes, one of my players tried to pull this one on me long ago.

zomg ponies.

Thats why you just use fly and carry up a few hundred bullets to 200 or so feet... granted thats a lot of weight, but thats also a bit of damage. You would have to get your allies out of the way though, this aint gonna be no small area you hit.

At 200ft they would be going about 60m/s, assuming 1-2 damager per hit, you could have some fun. :P You just better hope they don't have damage reduction.

Then again, the higher you go, the more likely the damage is to spread out, so it becomes moot at some point.

Also a basic understanding of Physics + Magic = :mrgreen: :shock: :mrgreen: :shock: :mrgreen: :shock: :mrgreen:

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects]Falling object[/url] rules from [url=http://www.d20srd.org]d20srd.org[/url]:

[quote]Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.[/quote]

Seeing as bullets only weigh a half pound, that doesn't work either.

Good try, though. :(

Sorry friend, Saber is right.

Our Telekinesis Shotgun was nerfed in 3.5e. If you can manage to find a 3e game still running (I don't know if there are many of those "I don't like WotC's coorporate blah blah" players left who shunned 3.5e when it first came out) then you are golden.

Actually, remember we had this conversation before...

On that tangent, the shotgun idea grows! I am imagining a wonderous item-weapon with the following properties added- Telekinesis (To fire) Portable Hole (Opened over the firing chamber to dump an almost endless supply of bullets into the chamber) and Levitate (To reduce the weight... making it an actual possibility for scrawny mageboy to fire the device.

Good luck getting it approved, however.

[quote="Saber"]Therefore, we must then assume that the sling bullets wouldn't deal 1d4 damage when hurled with Telekinesis, either. I'd have to assume we'd be lucky to pull 1d2 damage from a single sling bullet.[/quote]

Ya know... technically you are right Saber. I'd [i]still[/i] give the player 15 attack rolls, and do 1d4 damage each. Of course I'm generous like that I suppose.

I might bludgeon that caster to death later on with a blood soaked club, but there ya go...

I hadn't looked through the rules in a very long time since I made the idea with muddy in 3e, but I should probably mention a few things that we assumed when we made up the attack anyway. Clearly, you can move up to 15 items. If you move a backpack, you are allowed to move anything [u]inside[/u] the backpack with it because it makes sense. I don't see any good DM cracking down that badly on someone (unless they try to throw 700 sling bullets). Obviously, if you move the bag and the bag moves the objects, you're only moving one object according to the spell, but you should still treat it as if you're moving a 100 pound bag, not a 1 pound bag with 99 pounds of stuff you get to move for free.

Solution: carry a 5 pound box that holds 370 pounds of sling bullets. It doesn't really matter how much the box weighs as long as you fill it to 375 pounds total. Then, launch the box, stop it at the edge of the spell's movement limit/turn and the bullets continue.

Edit: since you mentioned arrows, assuming you could make the arrows actually hit correctly on a target, you wouldn't have to argue about the use of sling bullets. Just use a 6 pound box and 369 pounds of arrows. That's 2460 Arrows (3 lb. for 20) that count as daggers... so 1d4 each? =D

[quote="Mikkl"]Solution: carry a 5 pound box that holds 370 pounds of sling bullets. It doesn't really matter how much the box weighs as long as you fill it to 375 pounds total. Then, launch the box, stop it at the edge of the spell's movement limit/turn and the bullets continue.

Edit: since you mentioned arrows, assuming you could make the arrows actually hit correctly on a target, you wouldn't have to argue about the use of sling bullets. Just use a 6 pound box and 369 pounds of arrows. That's 2460 Arrows (3 lb. for 20) that count as daggers... so 1d4 each? =D[/quote]

Once again, I'm gonna defeat your arguement.

You mention hurling something, and then [b]stopping[/b] it mid-thrust. [i]Telekinesis[/i] doesn't allow you to do such, as it's merely a push in a single direction. You can stop exerting force, but the object you're pushing has momentum. To get it to stop, you'd need to apply enough force in the opposite direction to stop it (not to mention stop only the box and not its contents); something this spell certainly doesn't do.

In your example, the person would be hit by a (let's just say 375lb) box filled with sling bullets (or arrows). Even being generous, you'd deal 11d6 damage (1d6 damage per 25 lbs).

Better, seeing as you're only requiring a single attack roll, but still hardly effective for 5th lvl spell, and 15th caster level.

Good effort, though!

The action of stopping it midthrust isn't required. Whether or not a box is included, the arrows are going at full speed when the action ends. So, change the box to have height less than that of an arrow. Upon collision, it's the points of the arrows that hit, not the box.

I'd hardly say that 2000 pointy objects in a concentrated area will deal the same damage as 1 pointy object reused 2000 times. The spell's ruling of 11d6 sounds more than fair to me.

You'd require a pretty lenient (see, stupid) DM to get that to pass.

I was thinking the same thing. The problem is, that it's not 2000 pointy objects in the same area, it's 2000 pointy objects in 2000 seperate areas. If it's a blunt weapon (large box, shield, mace, etc), you can assume that the transfer of force goes somewhat to damage and somewhat to forcing the enemy in the opposite direction from the blow.

For arrows, each arrow would cause the enemy to accelerate enough that eventually, some arrows will do less or no damage. However, if you assume that the arrows are razor-tipped or have a very thin tip, the forces would be dispersed mostly perpendicular to the arrow's entry path, so more force goes to damage rather than accelerating the enemy.

This whole idea was never meant to be used in play... if someone did use it, they should quit and let the real players have fun.

It would be very difficult for those objects leaving the (bag, box, whatever) to all have a very specific path. Its likely that a small % would actually have a trajectory that would hit the intended recipient of those 'pointy objects', the rest spreading out in the surrounding area. And, spreading out the force that you exherted on the bag into 2000 objects (another point would be how much can you fit in a bag before it would tear from those objects...), they would be going relatively slowly, dealing little-no damage. You will also need some room to accelerate the bag, as well as decelrate it enough to all the objects inside are ejected out.

First I would require some kind of cocentration roll to pull off manuvering the bag like that, mostly decelerating it correctly. An attack roll of sorts to see if you can aim it correctly at your target, and then something like d100/3% projectiles in the bag actually go towards the target (if they miss either less or none, probably a roll similar to misses for thrown objects to determine where the stuff goes). And damage would be rolled partial blunt (which does less) and partial piercing (a wee bit more damage), because not all the projectiles are going to be flying tip first (especially not the way they were launched). Granted, thats probably over-nerfing it, but it would probably stop the situation from being brought up anyway.

That, and this seems like a one trick pony anyway, who wants to pick pick up all 2000 projectiles after you are done? Unless you are going to carry around multiple 375lb bags...?

Mikkl:
Lets ignore the minute aspects of your idea, and lets look at it 'realistically' by asking: what would hurt more? Being hit by a box filled with 2000 arrows, or being stabbed by a dagger 2000 times?

Also, compare your box full of arrows to a bed of nails. If you lay on a single nail, it's gonna go through you; no way to avoid that. If you lay on a bed of hundreds of nails, your weight is dispersed over numerous points, reducing the pain of each individual point. Does it hurt more than a single nail? Honestly, I don't know, but I'd assume it would, yeah. Especially if force was exerted. I can't imagine it'd hurt as much as a single nail, multiplied many hundred times, though.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no way you'd, as a DM, allow anyone, as a player, to do that, and get away with 2000+ damage. The physics don't allow for it, even though the mechanics barely do (and even then, only if you twist them to your viewpoint).

[quote="Saber"]Mikkl:
Lets ignore the minute aspects of your idea, and lets look at it 'realistically' by asking: what would hurt more? Being hit by a box filled with 2000 arrows, or being stabbed by a dagger 2000 times?

Also, compare your box full of arrows to the guy who can lay on bed of nails. If you lay on a single nail, it's gonna go through you; no way to avoid that. If you lay on a bed of hundreds of nails, your weight is dispersed over numerous points, reducing the pain of each individual point. Does it hurt more than a single nail? Honestly, I don't know, but I'd assume it would, yeah. Especially if force was exerted. I can't imagine it'd hurt as much as a single nail, multiplied many hundred times.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no way you'd, as a DM, allow anyone, as a player, to do that, and get away with 2000+ damage. The physics don't allow for it, even though the mechanics barely do (and even then, only if you twist them to your viewpoint).[/quote]

Speaking as someone who's actually done said act (don't laugh), I was gonna mention this before Saber posted.

A bed of nails. An... interesting, and squimish conversation piece. Let's say I have 2,000 nails on the bed, spaced evenly, and then have force applied to me in a rather downward motion.

Does it hurt? Surprisingly little actually, because of the weight dispersion. There is pain, most assuredly, and if [i]enough[/i] force is applied, it can hurt a [i]lot[/i].

And yet I still yelp in pain when I get a nail shoved through my finger. Fancy that, one item on one part of the body, even when it's hit with less force, hurts a lot more than an equal distribution amongst even many pointy things.

Meh. Just chain tele weapons together as a MotUH if you really wanna be ruthless. Don't bother with using it to throw things in the manner you're speaking ;)

Xeio, they have unseen servants and other splendid spells for picking up the 2000+ projectiles. =P Note: Currently, the arrows are being thrown from a box, which is assumed to keep them pointing in nearly the same direction as the top of the box, whereas a bag would be much less likely to have the tip of most of the arrows actually hit. The box doesn't need to be slowed down because the effect of the arrows is the same with or without the box.

I thought of the bed idea, too. But laying on a bed of nails, as multirp will tell you is done slowly. Yes, the force is dispersed, but think of getting hit by a box of 2000 arrows pointing right at you and think of lying on 2000 arrows. You'll most definitely take your time lying on the arrows... because they're sharp and pointy. It's like saying "I can push an arrow into my finger without cutting the skin. so I could probably lie on a bed of arrows just fine" then trying to lay on a bed of arrows and deciding "I'm fine here, too. I should probably see what would happen if I had 300 pounds of them shot at me. It would probably be like getting hit with a 300 pound wall going the same speed as an arrow, so I'd survive... right?" Chances are that it would be somewhere between getting hit by a 300-pound wall and getting hit by 2000 arrows.

If I ever did this, I would probably just have two walls with a bunch of daggers/pointy things that sprang together like a trap and pinned someone with happy damage.

BTW, I never said that this was the best idea, I just said that you could potentially throw 375 pounds of arrows at one target and do tons of damage. Especially in a munchkin campaign. A good DM would make the player take so many penalties for 1) arrows missing, 2) arrows hitting at a bad angle, 3) arrows bouncing off of arrows that hit first, 4) arrows glancing off of rounded parts of the body, and a lot more.

[quote="Mikkl"]BTW, I never said that this was the best idea, I just said that you could potentially throw 375 pounds of arrows at one target and do tons of damage. Especially in a munchkin campaign. A good DM would make the player take so many penalties for 1) arrows missing, 2) arrows hitting at a bad angle, 3) arrows bouncing off of arrows that hit first, 4) arrows glancing off of rounded parts of the body, and a lot more.[/quote]

Let's make this a good munchkin build then.... *thinks*
Sorc10/MotUH5.

Telekinesis on a greatsword, chain telekinese to 14 other greatswords (note the caster level increase from MotUH for tele), and now you have 15 greatswords that can take a full attack each at a target. At a BAB of 15+Int mod.

Assuming a sane 15th level Int mod of 2 (hey, it's a sorc, not a wiz.) we are looking at 17/12/7/2. From 15 different greatswords.

I'd rather do [i]that[/i] in a munchkin campaign than wonder how it would act to shove a box o' arrows at someone ;)

I'm playing Dragonlance with my friends right now (which is probably my least favorite campaign setting). Let's just say that Minotaurs are the stupidest race to combine with two-weapon fighting. I don't have my CS on me, but at level 6, I think I get +13/+13/+11/+6/+6/+1 and can do 8d6+36 physical and 2d6 magical damage everything hits (2d6 is magical damage). Come to think of it, keen rapiers would have made it even more annoying and probably would have tipped my DM in favor of killing my character since he's been debating it for a while.